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The Great Debate: 'The Natural' vs. 'Major League'

With "42" out this weekend we decided to fire up the old debate-o-meter to decide the best baseball film in cinematic history. This week's combatants include our very own Laremy Legel, representing "The Natural," squaring off against Ben Kaplan of Filmdrunk.com, advocating for "Major League". Gentleman, play ball!

Laremy Legel: Okay Ben, let's get this party started. Though we co-host a podcast about sports, I don't plan on taking it easy on you, much like Leslie Nielsen's umpire work, I go hard right from the get-go.

The best baseball movie ever? It's a pretty easy call, so I'll make it, "The Natural" is dyno-mite. It's really not even close, because "The Natural" is also one of the best, full stop, movies of the last 30 years. Four Oscar nominations, Robert Redford in his prime, Kim Basinger bringing heat, and your girl Glenn Close elevating each and every dramatic scene she's in. Based off a great book, but implementing a major story arc change that took full advantage of the film medium, "The Natural" makes me happy in ways that sports movies generally don't. It's "Miracle" meets "Superman" with a dash of "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" thrown in for fun. There is no better baseball movie out there than "The Natural" - there are only pretenders and silver medalists.

I almost feel bad for whatever scrub film you're taking, because it sure isn't to the level of "The Natural" - a film I will watch every single time it appears on TNT. Side note: I have watched "The Natural 1,036 times over the past three years. I regret nothing.

Finally, Wilford Brimley. That is all, concede now before it's too late.

Ben Kaplan: First off, how dare you bring Wilford Brimley into this. That man is a saint and introduced me to both Quaker Oats and Liberty Medical.

Second, while "The Natural" has several of the most incredible scenes in Hollywood history, you could easily edit the entire film down into a much more enjoyable 30 minutes. Show me Roy striking out the Fake Babe, knocking the cover off the ball, and then hitting the ball into the stadium lights and I'm good. Leave out Glenn Close and the uber-hot Kim Basinger. No need for that boring fluff that takes up most of the movie's running time.

You want a baseball movie that entertains from beginning to end? Something full of re-quotable lines and memorable scenes?

I give you "Major League."

The California Penal League.

"Juuuuuuust a bit outside."

The Wild Thing Ricky Vaughn.

Willy Mayes Hayes.

I don't even need to explain these and you already know what I am talking about, and that was just off to the top of my head. THAT's how good "Major League" is.

You have entered a fight you have no chance of winning, Laremy. You brought a pocket knife to a grenade fight. You are doomed. Now pick yourself up off the canvas and attempt to respond.

LL: "Major League?" "Major League!?" Automatic disqualification on sooooo many levels, especially when we're considering the "best" baseball movie in history.

Firstly, you'd have us believe that a group of grown men would reel off a winning streak like no other to see woman rock some pasties? Behold one of the "big" scenes from your sad little film:

That, my friend, is clearly selling out, especially because the film was Rated R! Ugh, a terrifying lapse in judgment from all concerned.

Second up, you can't discount the real life sadness / irony behind "Major League". Unlike "Fever Pitch" or "61*", both of which features an actual winning team, or "Ed," which is awful, but also has Matt LeBlanc acting alongside a chimpanzee, "Major League" posits a reality which has eluded The Cleveland Indians to this very day. This would be like me making a movie about you getting rich, taking you to see it, and then afterward laughing at you for not being wealthy. It's just plain mean, and I won't stand for it. No sirreee.

Then there's the small matter of Tom Berenger, who went on to look really creepily old in "Inception". I can't abide that in a main character; call me an ageist if you will. And what was his deal with Rene Russo? Why couldn't the man commit, and was he also a part-time stalker? I vote yes.

If I'm you, and I'd accidently brought "Major League" into the arena? I'd have went with Bob Uecker. That's your whole argument, the effervescent greatness of one Bob Uecker, the man whom god graced with a silver tongue and a rapier wit. Other than that? You've got nothing, bub, just like the World Series trophy rack over in Cleveland.

BK: Oh, Laremy. It appears have accepted your fate of losing this debate and you have resorted to below the belt shots at both the city of Cleveland and the surgically altered face of Tom Berenger. For God's sake, he was the sniper in "Sniper"! As well as the sniper in "Sniper 2" AND "Sniper 3" (was there really a "Sniper 2" and "Sniper 3"? I just found that out right now).

You do realize you are arguing for a movie that dares to suggest that Glenn Close is attractive. Kim Basinger, sure- I get that. Glenn Close? Come on- she wouldn't inspire anyone to hit a single let alone smash a baseball 600 feet into the stadium lights, merely by standing up.

Instead of arguing who is attractive, I will present some facts you can't dispute, your starters for the playoff-bound 1989 Cleveland Indians from "Major League":

Wesley Snipes, pre-"Blade," pre-tax evasion as Willy Mayes Hayes in center.

Dennis Haysbert, pre-President, pre-All State Insurance as Pedro Cerrano (he finally hit a curveball!)

Tom Berenger, pre-"Inception," pre-facial surgery as wily veteran catcher Jake Taylor.

Corbin Bernsen, pre-"Major League 2" as the selfish Roger Dorn.

Charlie Sheen, pre-meltdown, pre-tiger's blood, as the one and only "Wild Thing" Ricky Vaughn.

That is a Murderers' Row of casting. To top it off, the manager in "Major League," Lou Brown, crushes Pops in "The Natural". GIVE EM THE HEAT, RICKY!

As to your critique about "Major League" vs. the actual Cleveland Indians, aren't movies supposed to be aspirational? Isn't art supposed to inspire? What does "The Natural" ask us to shoot for, getting shot by random women in dodgy hotel rooms?

Now, do you have any more unfair labels for Cleveland or Rene Russo, or perhaps instead you actually have something of substance in your blogging cave with which to fight back? I have a few more tricks up my sleeve for whatever strategy you attempt to employ. Bring the action.

LL: I don't know what the word "impugn" means, but I'm fairly certain you did it to me back there.

Re: Glenn Close, how dare you, and also she's a national treasure, and also how dare you.

But I don't need to knock down your sad little comedy to win this argument because "The Natural" out-earned "Major League" (adjust for inflation, you fiend!), out-Oscar nommed "Major League," and outranks it in the people's voting over there at IMDB.com. You have no metric, no foundation, no basis on which to argue "Major League" is better. You're the used car saleman of this debate, hoping to distract and dazzle until you can con the people into buying the extended service plan (note: that might actually be a good idea, but it costs an awful lot of money).

What do I have? I have this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

Do you realize the Roy Hobbs story has definite echoes of Ted Williams, the greatest hitter who ever lived, a guy who saved freedom and democracy and apple pie in World War 2? Or that Pops actually got to keep owning the team, whereas your "Major League" crew still had the same terrible ownership, people that I'm guessing eventually went on to own the Florida Marlins?

Roy Hobbs took a bullet! Your guys main obstacle was a janky boss. That's not adversity, that's an inconvenience.

When you can hit a baseball a couple thousand yards into a lighting fixture, all while bleeding out, you can come talk to me about "The Natural". Until then, I banish you to the "mistake by the lake" (unfair labels make the world go 'round).

BK: You just boiled down "The Natural" into its only good 10 minutes, making my argument for me. For that, I thank you. In 2013, you cannot just simply throw Youtube clips at the wall and expect to go home with a trophy. What are you, "Talk Soup"?

I concede that the final homerun in "El Natural" is incredible and one of my favorite moments in any movie, sports or not. Especially when potentially deadly electrical sparks are raining down on the crowd and players. However, that scene is by far the best part of a film that spans several hours.

In response, I present Exhibit A through Z as to why "Major League" is the better film:

Watch that scene again. I dare you to not get goose bumps and/or shed a tear for those hard luck Cleveland Indians. The UNPRECEDENTED "called-shot-to-bunt" from the catcher Jake Taylor. Wonderfully shot, the scene includes Willy Mayes Hayes' amazing hook slide for the winning run, and the college like atmosphere of fans on the field (Side note: how did all those fans get on the field so fast? Extremely poor security in Cleveland. Must be the ownership skimping once again).

Every generation, someone comes along that can blast homeruns 800 feet into the lights and rain down sparks that may or may not kill a few people. Only once in the history of the game can a catcher pull of the called-shot-to-bunt single.

"Major League" has drama, humor, great sports scenes, and a crazy haired Charlie Sheen in his prime. "The Natural" has four good scenes and ... what else?

Concede before you end up in the hospital, Mr. Legel.

LL: At least we're in agreement on the deadly electrical sparks! What were those people doing, staring up in wonder as their wool coats slowly caught fire?

But let's unpack the whole "bunt-called-shot" angle. First up, it's an homage to Babe Ruth, a Yankee when he did it, and then actually, you know, hitting the home run, in the midst of winning a mess of championships. Which is something, back in fantasy land, and according to "Major League 2" is something the Indians didn't pull off. Also, there's no chance Jake Taylor makes it to first. He could barely walk! He'd have been out by two steps, easy. Finally, the symbolism of a bunt can't be ignored. Go ahead and name all the famous bunts in history while I wait over here. The reason it's "unprecedented" is because it's dumb. whereas home runs are always awesome. Chicks don't dig the bunt game, and "Moneyball" proved once and for all that teams who bunt are made up of mental incompetents who are destined to fail. Which, once again, we learn The Indians did. We never know what became of The Knights, but you'd have to cede that a certain negative is worse than a complete unknown. That's just math doing its thing.

Next up, your film perpetuates negative Native American stereotypes. That famous "smiling Indian" logo? For shame, Benjamin, for shame. I didn't want to have to go there, but your mean-spirited dismissal of the greatest baseball movie ever left me no choice. You reap what you sow.

"The Natural" is a truly amazing film in terms of tone as well. It's part noir, part mystery, part sports, with a healthy portion of supernatural. Unlike your "Major League" effort, which is at best a note and a half, "The Natural" contains multitudes. We're about to turn this puppy over to the jury, which I'm confident will go my direction, such is the public's love for "The Natural" - but I can't help but note one more pertinent factor. Your director, David S. Ward, was 44 years of age when "Major League" came out. Want to guess when his directing career came to a screeching halt? Seven years later with something called "Down Periscope". Yikes. My guy, Barry Levinson, has three directorial projects in production right this moment, and went on to direct little films such as "Rain Man" "Good Morning, Vietnam" and "Bugsy".

Game, set, match. "Major League" was a fluky film put out by substandard talent, an unworthy counterpoint to the majesty of "The Natural".

The pedigree, the iconic scenes, the lack of racial stereotypes, the lighting safety issues - "The Natural" had it all. "Major League" was like that player the owner wanted to sign who ended up being dead. It's time to cross it off the list.

Also check out: Laremy's review of "42"

BK: I have been waiting years for the directors cut of "The Natural" that shows the crowd engulfed in flames after Roy's homer into the lights. They seem to cut that scene pretty quickly after Roy touches home plate, leading me to believe that the burning crowd was removed from the final edit.

My argument will conclude with the "If you HAD to watch either movie start to finish right now, what you would pick?" I think the consensus among any normal human besides you would clearly be "Major League". Unless of course you are editing "The Natural" down to a nice 30 minute package. "Major League" could be the funniest sports movie ever, has amazing actual sports scenes, and all wrapped around the universally enjoyed "No One Believed in Us!" story.

"The Natural" has a cool bat, a mostly silent chubby bat boy, a few amazing home runs, and a crowd that is likely burning to death as the credits roll.

"Major League" also led to "Major League 2" and "Major League: Back to the Minors," producing enormous raises for the returning cast, potentially leading to spectacle that is Charlie Sheen's drug addiction. "The Natural" never produced one, let alone two, horrible sequels. If, one day, I read that "The Natural 2: The Batboy - Savoy Special" is in production, you may have an argument that "The Natural" is a better movie. Until then, it's no contest: give me "Major League" all day.

Now please excuse me as I begin a lengthy internet search for "Burning Fans "The Natural" Deleted Scene." I bid you good day, turning it over to the readers to decide who won this epic internet battle of the minds.

Laremy wrote the book on film criticism and wouldn't be caught dead in a cave, for the dampness would ruin him.

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